Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth Show with Toby Mildon, future-proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.
Toby Mildon: Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Show. I’m Toby Mildon, and today, I’m joined by Dr. Steve Yacovelli, who is a fantastic guy. You’ll get to hear more from him in a bit, but he’s written a book called Pride Leadership: Strategies for the LGBTQ+ Leader to be the King or Queen of Their Jungle. So, Steve, it’s lovely to see you on the show today. How are you doing?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: I’m doing well, Toby, thank you so much for having me on.
Toby Mildon: So, Steve, could you begin by letting us know a bit more about who you are, what you do?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Yeah, sure. So, Dr. Steve Yacovelli, pronouns he, him, and his. And as Toby said, I am the owner and principal of TopDog Learning Group. I’m also known as the Gay Leadership Dude. So I’d like to say that by using this self-proclaimed title, you automatically know three things about me: That I’m gay, that I self-identify as a dude, and third, I really like to talk about leadership, especially inclusive leadership within the workplace. I’ve been doing this pretty much my whole career in one way, shape or another, playing leadership, change management, diversity inclusion consulting, both internal to some groups. I was a Disney Folk for a while, I was an IBMer for a bit, I was a professor here in the States for like a hot minute after I got my doctorate. But I’ve been doing my own practice for over 14 years now.
Toby Mildon: Brilliant. And then, we’re strengthening the bonds between UK and USA, so I’m based in the north of England. Where are you based, Steve?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: I’m in Orlando, Florida, but I actually lived in Lancaster for a while.
Toby Mildon: Oh, cool. So you know the area.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: I do know the area, and I knew… It was… When I lived there, I was working at the university, and it was the coldest summer ever, at least when I was there, probably like being cold from sex.
Toby Mildon: So, in your book, you talk about six key areas around the inclusive leadership, so you talk about authenticity, courage, empathy, communication, relationships, and culture. So, we said that we would spend a bit of time just doing a bit of a deep dive into each of these six areas, ’cause actually, it’s quite a useful checklist for people to work through if they want to increase their inclusive leadership abilities. So, let’s start at the top with authenticity. What are your kinda key takeaways around that?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Before I get into that, Toby, if I could, just to let folks know how the heck Steve came up with these six. [laughter]
Toby Mildon: Yeah. Let’s go there do that, yeah.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: So… You know, actually, like I said, I’ve been consulting in this space for many years, and I was at a conference several years ago. And I’m sorting business cards, like people do at conferences, and this woman’s doing the exact same thing sitting next to me, and she’s struck up a conversation. She’s like, “What do you do?” I’m like, “You know, consulting, blah blah blah. How about you?” She’s like, “I’m a publisher.” I’m like, “You know, there’s a book in my head that needs to come out,” and she’s like, “Well, let’s get that book out.” And so, we started going down the path, and I knew I wanted to make it leadership, given that’s really where I focus a lot of my energy. And so I started kinda putting things together, thinking about what I’ve seen: Leaders in general who are doing so well, really knocking it out of the park, and what commodities they have; ones that aren’t doing so well, kind of what they’re missing, and then… You remember that… Well, it’s actually come back now, but do you remember the show Sex and the City?
Toby Mildon: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Of course.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Of course, yeah. So, back in the day, Carrie would sit and… Carrie the main character, she was a writer. And she’d sit at her little laptop, and she’d write, “I couldn’t help but wonder.” And so that little… It’s the gay man in me, I guess, I dunno. But I heard that voice, and I said, “I couldn’t help wonder, is there something about the queer experience that allows you to exercise leadership a little bit differently?” And so it’s not better for worse, so… I’ve had many people interview me say “Are you saying straight people can’t be good leaders?” I’m like, “Well, yeah, that’s true.” No, I’m kidding, that’s not true. But I do say that there is an opportunity for LGBTQ+ folks to exercise their leadership muscles differently. And so, that’s kind of how Pride Leadership came about. I do know, from many people who’ve given me feedback, my editors, that it’s totally open for our straight allies as well. But ultimately, speaking to your point, Toby, and getting into the competencies, these are the six, regardless of who you are, that I’ve seen leaders either rock and roll and knock it out of the park, so to speak, as we say here in the States, or the ones who don’t have these not do so well.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: And so, we’ll take authenticity first, and I’m not the first person to have this conversation. I mean, I know you talk about it. A lotta people talk about authentic leaders are better. Yes! Why is that? Well, we know… We as humans can tell when someone’s not being authentic, whether it’s conscious or unconscious. We get that feeling when someone’s just not being their true authentic selves. Well now, put that through the rainbow lens, as you like to say. Well, if I’m an out man, out gay man at work, or I’m a trans person being their authentic selves within the workplace, that’s power. That’s flexing that leadership muscle. And so, I talk in Pride Leadership that… How can you then channel that to just be an authentic leader in general, because that’s the way people will start to really gravitate toward you, and… And really, the massive secret behind any effective leadership regardless is fostering trust. And these six, that’s what you do. If I’m authentic, people trust me. If I’m leading through leadership courage, meaning I’m gonna have those hard conversations, I’m gonna provide you with that feedback, Toby. Even if it’s not something you feel comfortable hearing, I’m still gonna provide you with that and know at the end of the day, you know what? We’re okay, ’cause I’m just helping you be better. Having that courage, again, leads to fostering trust.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: So, there’s no hidden agenda with these six. And what’s nice about ’em is they all just tie so gorgeously together. They’re not like these nice little linear stripes. For those who can’t see, of course they’re six, because that’s the color of the Pride flag, haha, depending on which Pride flag you look at. But really, all of them are so gorgeously intertwined. Like, I can’t be authentic if I’m not courageous. That’s kinda how that works. I can’t be building relationships if I’m not empathetic to the other person, and so, they kind of all meld together in a great way.
Toby Mildon: So really, authenticity is about being congruent. When you were talking, I was thinking about what Brené Brown talks about, in terms of leaning into your vulnerabilities as well. Does that come into being an authentic leader as well?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Absolute… Totally agree with the goddess that is Brené Brown. You know, it’s… Because it’s true. I mean, you know, as a smart leader, as an effective leader, I wanna own up to what I can do, what I’m rocking and rolling at, and the stuff that I’m not good at, because smart leaders surround themselves with people who fill in the gaps of my own competence level, and also complement me on the different facets of my diversity. I’m an extrovert, in case you could not figure that out by listening to me. I like to talk; I like to be around people. If I’m smart, I’d build my team with at least a couple folks who have a more introverted perspective, ’cause they’re gonna bring something to the table that, clearly, I don’t. And that’s being authentic to knowing that about myself and bringing that to the overall workplace, and of course, well beyond.
Toby Mildon: So what about the secondary, about courageousness? When we look at the six signature traits of an inclusive leader that Deloitte put together, they talk about having courageous conversations, being a bold leader, calling things out when you see things happening; that kind of thing. What’s your perspective on courage?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: It’s all that and more. [chuckle] So, a courageous leader doesn’t shy… And we’ll put it through the framework of being a consciously inclusive leader, which is the phrasing I like to use. And a consciously inclusive leader knows that when things aren’t being as inclusive as they should and could be, that they make those moments known. And I actually talk about this in my communications chapter, but again, these are all just this gorgeous ball of string, that they all touch upon each other. So if I’m in a situation where… Here’s a true story. I was in a conference room in Atlanta with a client, and we were kind of closing out this change management project; it was myself and one of my TopDoggers, which is what I call my consultants, and then about 40 other folks from the project team, and we’re all… It was just like “Rah rah, we’re done, woohoo, we did the project.” The very head of the table is the senior executive, and this is the person who literally signed the checks to my company. And they were executive sponsor and male, and that’s important to the story, ’cause just as we’re about to start the meeting and the voices are slowly dying down, you hear that senior executive say, “Well, you know how all women drive.” And at that moment… And of course, I’m a child from the 80s, and I just envisioned the John Hughes, you know…
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Record screeching, and if you don’t know what a record is, Google it. So like that, everyone stops. And everyone looked at the head of the table, but no one said a word. Now, at that exact moment, we were all engaged in what’s called silent collusion. By not saying something or addressing it, we’re all silently supporting that stupid comment. So now, we get back to courage. A courageous leader won’t let that happen. They will say something like, “Bob,” we’ll pretend Bob is the executive, “What did you mean by that statement?” And again, it’s doing it in a tactful way, notice my emotions, and go “Bob, what did you mean by that statement?” You know… Message very different. But a courageous leader won’t let those types of things go, and will take that honor and that courage and address those in that moment, because everybody is watching you as a leader. Regardless of if you have a team, you’re on a project, you are an independent contributor; doesn’t matter. You are always on stage as a leader, and people are collecting data about the type of leader that you are; whether you’re gonna defend them or not. And so, that’s where courageous leadership really can come into play and build trust as well.
Toby Mildon: And what’s your advice to somebody who is struggling with being able to speak up or call out things when they notice it, ’cause that’s something I come across quite a lot.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Yeah, and it’s a fantastic question. I often have people say, “Well, that’s like my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss’s boss’s boss. I can’t say something to her!” And you know, it’s… I hear you, I’ve been in many corporate environments, I get it. But at the end of the day, it’s up to you and your personal value system to decide how you want to lead and live through that. And so, some people say, “Can I say something to them offline?” Yes, you can. However, you’ve missed that leadership opportunity to let others know that “You know what, I don’t agree with that.” And it could be just something as simple as you saying a non-word. I have this little tool in Pride Leadership, as well as on our website as a little free training: The six strategies to beat silent collusion, and one of those… It’s called MOPSAM; it’s very silly and fun. But one of those is you say a non-word, like “Whoa.” Just something like that alone sends a verbal message that “I’m so not onboard with that stupid statement you said.” Now, it doesn’t go so far to address what this person said, but at the very minimum, I’m showing that “Uh-uh, that’s not cool.”
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: And so, you have to weigh… One of the fabulous strategies I’ve shared with so many leaders throughout the years, especially in very large companies, is I say, “Look at your corporate values.” And corporate values are your how you’re supposed to work together. I would venture a very big guess that something about open and honest communication, providing feedback, something… Creating an inclusive workplace, something like that is there in your values, I guarantee it, quite frankly. And so, use that as your shield. Say “Wow, you know, hey, Bob, aren’t we supposed to create an inclusive workplace? I kind of don’t perceive that that comment is really helping to do that. Maybe that’s my perspective, but I just wanted to share that with you.”
Toby Mildon: Absolutely. So, after courage, you’ve got empathy, and you’ve got a chapter in your book called Yielding the Magic Fairy Wand or Sword of Empathy. And you talk about elephants as well, which is really intriguing. What is the magic wand or sword, and where do elephants come into this? [chuckle]
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Yeah, yeah, so… I think when you look at traditional workplaces, and it’s getting a little less than this way, but back in the day… Back in the day, to quote myself, or to age myself, the concept of emotions and understanding emotions and bringing emotions to the workplace was taboo. And this is not just a US thing, you can look at… It’s in a lotta western society. “Emotions stay at the door, you come and bring your mind; that’s what we need here in business.” And that’s kinda shenanigans, really.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: And so, that’s kind of where I start to say “Embrace the emotion,” and the whole elephant thing is actually not my analogy, it’s based upon a book by Chip and Dan Heath, two brothers. It’s a book called Switch, which is a fantastic book in and of itself, which talks about how humans kind of embrace change, is kind of the framework of that book. But in there, they talk about this concept that they borrowed from, I believe, this NYU professor, where it’s the concept of the elephant and the rider. And so, they talk about where we as humans are both the elephant and the rider. You think of these two parts of one entity, where the rider part is the logical side of us humans, you know, so, kind of in control, riding on top of the elephant, which the elephant is the emotional side of us. But they use this analogy because the sizes of these two beings is very different. And so, if I’m the rider, and I’m taking my elephant down the path, and I want the elephant to go right, Toby, which way do you think that elephant goes?
Toby Mildon: Yeah.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Only goes right if they want to. [chuckle] So… And that’s how our emotions are, and think about every single person listening right now. You’ve been emotionally hijacked. And some way, your emotions get the better of you. And that’s just how we operate as humans, and it’s beautiful. So smart leaders understand this and really start to leverage that emotional connectivity, not just to foster relationships, but really start to understand those within the group that they’re leading, whether it be a project, their team, or even as an individual contributor.
Toby Mildon: Brilliant. And then, the kind of the fourth area, you talk about communication, and one of the things that grabbed my attention in your book, in this chapter, is the question that you put, which is “Why are LGBTQ+ folks good at communicating?” And I got that, ’cause I identify as gay myself, and I’m just thinking, “Yeah, why is that?” [chuckle]
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: You know… And thank you for sharing that, Toby. You know, I hypothesize in Pride Leadership that, as a queer person, for the most part, we’re a hidden minority. So you choose to disclose… And there’s several other minority perspectives out there that are the same. You choose to out yourself, to come out; that’s why that term is there. But we do that very strategically. We do that… And now, think through the Maslow hierarchy of needs. Yeah, we start with that safety thing. I’m not gonna come out of the closet and go “Hello, friends!”, when I’m in a situation that I can perceive as very unsafe to my well-being. When you start figuring your authentic self out as a queer person, you start looking for those nonverbal cues and those different signals that are out there that help us understand things a little bit better in context. And that’s why I say, as a queer person, we’ve had lots of practice in starting to be put into situations, and whether you know it or not, you’re looking for allies. You’re looking for safety; you’re looking for that harbor where, if things get ugly, I got someone who hopefully has got my back.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Flash forward to now, we’re getting smarter, as workplaces, to throw those overtly out there. You know, people often ask me, “Why do I put my pronouns and stuff?” You know why, because you’re sending a gorgeous signal to members of the queer community that you’re an ally, you’re a safe space. Just through the nature of our survival, we’ve had to develop this different way of not just communicating, but also having some of those hard communication strategies. Again, back to courage, when I had to come out to my parents and share that authenticity of who I finally figured out who I am, when I had to do that in a workplace. And it wasn’t just, you know, I came in with my rainbows a-flaming. I would strategically share, like, “Hey, just so you know, I have a boyfriend,” or now, “I have a husband,” and whatever that looks like. So we start to think through and navigate a little bit differently, where that just allows us to exercise those communication muscles, again, just in a different way than our straight brothers and sisters.
Toby Mildon: Absolutely. And I suppose we’ve covered four of the six areas so far. I mean, what would you say are some of the key takeaways so far, that the person listening to us today could start to communicate back to their own organizations?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: I think one of the biggest things that would jump out of me is the concept of getting out of your own bias, and I think that that hits a lot of the four… Actually, all six that we talk about, and I’ll… But I’ll just pick on communication for example. We all have our preferred ways of communicating. You know, some people like to pick up the telephone. Some people are like, “Why are you voice-calling me? This is ridiculous. Just send me a darn text.” Others are like shooting off 20 million emails a day. We all have our preferred. And I challenge everybody to think, what’s your recipient’s preferred? You know, I mean… I think about my niece, and if I call her, she freaks out, ’cause she’s a millennial, and she’s just like, you know… She calls me Peeve. She’s like, “Uncle Peeve, what the hell are you calling me for?” I’m like, “I just wanted to say hi.” So now, I know, send a text. “Hey, how are you doing? You got five minutes? I’d just love to chat.” “Ah, cool.” So it’s thinking through their recipient of the message and how that message is being sent versus your own bias for how you like to do things.
Toby Mildon: Absolutely. And I suppose that’s really about understanding your audience, and that’s the third area of your model, which is around empathy, isn’t it?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Yep, yep.
Toby Mildon: Yeah. So let’s go on to the final two. So the penultimate area is relationships, where there… What would you say is one of the most important things that the person listening to us right now needs to know about relationships?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: So when we say relationships, it’s building and fostering relationships. And so, I think one of the biggest strategies to think about is how can you do that, and I’ll put it through the lens of contemporary times, which was obviously not when the book was written, although the book’s only a couple years old, but… It landed just before a pandemic. [chuckle] But I do talk about how you foster relationships via distance. And my doctorate’s actually in instructional technology and distance education, so I was Zooming before it was cool, just so you know. [chuckle] And… But I remember this nugget of wisdom that one of my first professors shared in my doctoral program. And he said, “You know, we’re talking about distance learning; distant communication, really.” And he said, “I’m gonna be blunt. Distance learning will absolutely never, ever replace the feeling that us humans have by physically being together.” And he’s absolutely spot on. I will be the first, as someone who’s a big proponent of distance education, to say that.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: However, it’s not saying that distance can’t foster relationships, and I think a lot of us have seen that, whether we wanted to or not, via this current experience in our world. You know, Toby and I, you and I have had several chats via Zoom. I would have never had the pleasure of meeting you had it not been for this technology; fantastic. It could be that I have a team who I haven’t seen in two years, and “Oh, I don’t feel like I’m fostering relationships.” Shenanigans, yes, you can. You have to think a little bit differently. And I know, for the… We do a lot of multi-module leadership programming for several Fortune 500s, that’s kind of… We used to do it onsite, of course, now we do it via distance. So what we started doing is baking in some of that social learning, you know, “Hey, we’re gonna log in 20 minutes before.” We encourage you to do the same thing, just like you’d be hanging out at the coffee spot in the back of the conference room. And you give those opportunities for people to kinda mimic, as close as you can, to that physical environment space. No, it’ll never be the same, but I think everybody listening can really think about how are you fostering those relationships? And you might have to be a bit more purposive than you would just happen to walk into the break room together, but you can still do it, and think about those ways to really nurture those using the technology that you have.
Toby Mildon: Yeah, and I don’t know about you, but I found it really interesting the last couple of years, how I’m starting to see some new technologies come out that are trying to mimic the analog world. For instance, I came across something the other day called Kumospace, K-U-M-O space. It’s an online meeting platform, but essentially, you create zones, and then you can kind of move between the zones, so you could have a lounge zone, where you can just hang out and chill, you can have a bar zone, you can have a boardroom… I think it’s quite a funky way of being able to give people, or emulate what people might do in the… The analog world, so I’m really interested to see what else comes out.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: And I’ve… And I too have seen… There’s a bunch of different… Especially when you start going to virtual conferences, to your point. I know some… Like, they’d have virtual roundtables, and there would be a topic at each one. You’d be like, “Oh, these folks are talking about, say, inclusive leadership. I’ll sit down here and have a chat,” then you go into your little break room, and there’s that. And you’re like, “Okay, that’s fine, I’m gonna go walk over to the next room,” and yeah, there’s really clever ways that we can get around some of this stuff and really, at least, try to foster a bit more connectivity, given the tools, technology, and distance that we’re all facing.
Toby Mildon: Definitely. Now, the final area that you talk about is culture, and there is an overlap between our work, ’cause in my book, I’ve got a chapter on culture as well. But I’m really intrigued about what you’re saying about how can LGBTQ+ leaders promote a culture club of change?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: [laughter] By subtitles. [laughter]
Toby Mildon: How can they create that culture club?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Yeah, so… You know, when I talk about culture, of course, it’s shaping culture, and… I think all of us others have an opportunity to create an inclusive space, so that we all feel a sense of belonging and welcome and safety. So, in Pride Leadership, I talk about, you know, what are you doing as an LGBTQ+ leader to really think through that? You know, to approach your leadership and ask them about how inclusive they are being? And I also acknowledge, in the book, that for some of us queer folks… Actually, some of… All of us, others who are trying to create an inclusive workspace, sometimes, it’s exhausting. And sometimes, we’re always throwing the mantle of being the teacher for the majority that’s out there that doesn’t “understand” our perspective, and while I encourage everybody to take on that mantle, I also do that with a big sloppy legal asterisk, if you have the bandwidth and the energy and the passion, ’cause I saw way too often, in June of 2020, when all my Black and Brown brothers and sisters were all now suddenly forced to explain Black Lives Matter. And it’s like, that’s not their job.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: And so… And I think… You know, you can insert any other category here in that regard. And so, I think shaping culture is all of our opportunity, but I do give the reader an out to say, “Look, you decide. And here’s some criteria to think through.” And at the end of the day, I would love for all of us to be those change agents that we can be, especially if you’re in a geographical space or a work environment that isn’t as consciously inclusive as we’d like you to be. But at the end of the day, it’s up to you to decide if you’d like to take on that fight or not. You know, here are some strategies in the shaping culture to do that, and the first one is to really look at those workplace vision/mission/values, and then see, are they being lived? Because if they’re out there, that’s what you can hold the organization accountable for. And if they’re like, “Oh, you’re right,” cool, then you have headway. If they’re like, “Oh, Steve, those are just really cool marketing things that we put on an onboarding, and… Yeah,” then you’ve just gotten some data, and you can make some decisions about, you know, do you wanna stay there and do the fight, or pick up your toys and find value elsewhere?
Toby Mildon: Excellent. I would encourage anybody to go and get your book, because you cover six key areas which I think anybody in a leadership position should be reading about. So, just to recap, we’ve talked about authenticity, courage, empathy, communications, relationships, and culture. Your book, Pride Leadership: Strategies for the LGBTQ+ Leader to be the King or Queen of Their Jungle, is available on Amazon, if the person listening to us today wants to get a copy. And before we go, a couple of questions for you. First of all, what does inclusive growth mean for you, given that this is the Inclusive Growth Show?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Of course. [laughter] And it’s the book right behind you, if you can’t see. So for me, inclusive growth is two-fold. It’s as a leader, and I’ll put it through the leadership lens, ’cause that’s my jam, Gay Leadership Dude. First is… It’s really thinking about having that broader perspective beyond yourself, and thinking about that sense of belonging, and of course, including others within the space. And then the growth part, really, is also two-fold. It’s about myself, and being inclusive, and trying to understand all of the other perspectives, because obviously, I bring so much of my layers of diversity to the table. There’s other things I don’t understand, and I should try to strive to at least have some semblance of an understanding, and level of empathy for that, so that’s one. And then the growth part, of course, also means, to kind of what we’re talking about, shaping culture, is how can I help grow my respective sphere of influence; could be the workplace, social group, whatever, to be more inclusive for all of us in the world?
Toby Mildon: Yeah, absolutely. And then the final question is, if the person listening to us right now wants to learn more about the work that you do, go deeper after they’ve read your book, what should they do?
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Yeah, the best place to go is our main website. It’s topdoglearning, all one word.biz, B-I-Z. There you’ll find information about myself, about all my books, so Pride Leadership’s my third. And you can see my team, my pack, as we like to call it at TopDog. You can sign up for our newsletter; we send lots of free stuff out. We do some free webinars, all sorts of cool things. So make sure that you see the little popup box and sign up from there, as well as… We have some free what we call learning tapas, or bite-sized self-paced learning nuggets, as we like to call them, one of which is on the six strategies to beat silent collusion through the MOPSAM, so topdoglearning.B-I-Z.
Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Well, Steve, thank you ever so much for joining me today. I’ve really enjoyed speaking with you, and I know you’ve got other books, so I think we’ll have to get you back on to talk about the other books as well. So yeah, thanks ever so much for joining.
Dr Steven “Steve” Yacovelli: Thank you, Toby.
Toby Mildon: And thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth Show. I hope you’ve enjoyed my conversation today with Steve and have taken away some really useful hints and tips and strategies that you can use back in your own organization. Please do reach out to Steve if you want some further help and support from him. And by all means, go and download or buy his book, Pride Leadership: Strategies for the LGBTQ+ Leader to be the King or Queen of Their Jungle. It’s available on Amazon and all other good bookstores, as they say. So yeah, thanks ever so much for tuning in, and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Until then, take care, and thanks very much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth Show. For further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at mildon.co.uk.